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Scuffle Day 2

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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby D3 for LU » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:19 pm

Gfeller w/ a fall over Lee... what fireworks before the fall! :shock:
After hearing about Karam's SF loss to the OSU redshirt... THAT COULD OF BEEN LUKE!
(juss sayin' :roll: )
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby BP-LU87 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:38 pm

IBrown with the pin.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby D3 for LU » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:39 pm

Ian Brown w/ a 1st pd. fall and 7th place over Appalachian St.... who missed a lateral drop on Ian earlier on (phew!)
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby D3 for LU » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:57 pm

Longo came up short in his 7/8 consi bout, 9-7 against Torres from No.Colorado.
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Last edited by D3 for LU on Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby Marylandengineer » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:59 pm

Why didn't Longo take neutral in the third?
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby mr_ftl » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:00 pm

GFW takes 5th by INJ DEF, not to be confused w MED FFT
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby D3 for LU » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:01 pm

Well... lets see how Kutler will go vs nit's Hall 2.0...
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby D3 for LU » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:12 pm

Not much better... :|
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby JDALU75 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:39 pm

I've got to believe that any thoughts about Kutler moving down to 165 should now be set aside. He lost to the defending NCAA champ in the finals. He easily beat IM's #7 and #17 wrestlers, finished ahead of IM's #8 and #12 wrestlers; all of whom placed in the top 6. IM's #18 wrestler DNP'd. He's definitely Top 5 at 174. I can't see that it makes much sense to force the issue to get down to 165, with the risks that entails, so that maybe he can be Top 3 at that weight.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby LU in NJ » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:33 am

>>>>>>>>I see the weight class question differently.

Jordan fits well at 174 if the goal is to win a lot matches and EIWA titles and become an AA, but the top of the podium ( or even top 3) appears to be a bridge too far.

Jordan's 2nd loss to Hall wasn't a one td affair that hinged on a scramble, Hall was solidly better in all three positions.

If 174 is as low as he can possibly go, then you move forward and hope to catch lighting at the NCAAs.

Just one fan's opinion.

It's a great time to be a Lehigh wrestling fan.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby mr_ftl » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:10 am

JDALU75 wrote:I've got to believe that any thoughts about Kutler moving down to 165 should now be set aside. He lost to the defending NCAA champ in the finals. He easily beat IM's #7 and #17 wrestlers, finished ahead of IM's #8 and #12 wrestlers; all of whom placed in the top 6. IM's #18 wrestler DNP'd. He's definitely Top 5 at 174. I can't see that it makes much sense to force the issue to get down to 165, with the risks that entails, so that maybe he can be Top 3 at that weight.

I see Kutler as the #4 seed at 174, behind Valencia, Hall, and BoJo in that order. It’s possible he could sneak ahead of BoJo, who already has two losses to Valencia & is a toss-up for two future bouts w Hall.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby RichB » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:37 am

mr_ftl wrote:
WallyCKP wrote:>>Ugh....and this tournament as Wally has said is not nearly the meat grinder as in year's past.....

... Well ughh for sure ... but the format is a meat grinder regardless

... And I'm tired of us too often getting outhustled by guys who upset us -- just like we enjoy getting upsets when we're unranked.

... I'll write in LUWN Thurs about how few of these holidays I've ever attended (among 23-24) where I *haven't* been significantly disappointed.

... you think it hurts there, try investing all the travel time & $$ like mr ftl and I just did

... good thing I used FF mi this time ... and thank god for the nice finishes, too, but not enough of them

I think I coined the term “meat grinder” regarding the Scuffle. I just hope this is rock bottom for the team and they can rebuild to peak in March. This is my fifth Scuffle (at least) and I’ve been to two Midlands. This is definitely the worst collegiate holiday tourney the I’ve attended.

The Scuffle is a shadow of former itself, as compared to its heyday in Greensboro with Cornell, OK State, Mizzou, and Minnesota. I don’t know which was worse... drop off in talent, Lehigh performance, seeds, OK State no-shows (Fix & Smith), having only ONE laptop to cover video reviews for four mats, and the officiating... I truly believe I saw a ref give Verkleeren a reversal AFTER giving him a TD - and the RT clock never started (consy R12). I’ll have to go back and rewatch that bout.

My five-year old will begin wrestling next year. Perhaps we’ll find a nice holiday youth tourney in the Bakersfield area and make a father/son weekend out of it?


Actually the first time I heard of a tourney being called a meat grinder was towards National Duals, probably after the 2002 event in Columbus where Pirozzola essentially had a career ending injury. (hadn't realized he came back to lose both in Penn-Drexel) and a couple of of other less final injuries.

But certainly, when the Scuffle brackets were 40+ guys (more than nationals) in 2 not 3 days it was a meat grinder. up 10 bouts in 2 days, not the NCAA max of 9 in 3 days (3-2-4---R-F-S)
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby mr_ftl » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:52 am

mr_ftl wrote:
WallyCKP wrote:>>Ugh....and this tournament as Wally has said is not nearly the meat grinder as in year's past.....

... Well ughh for sure ... but the format is a meat grinder regardless

... And I'm tired of us too often getting outhustled by guys who upset us -- just like we enjoy getting upsets when we're unranked.

... I'll write in LUWN Thurs about how few of these holidays I've ever attended (among 23-24) where I *haven't* been significantly disappointed.

... you think it hurts there, try investing all the travel time & $$ like mr ftl and I just did

... good thing I used FF mi this time ... and thank god for the nice finishes, too, but not enough of them

I think I coined the term “meat grinder” regarding the Scuffle. I just hope this is rock bottom for the team and they can rebuild to peak in March. This is my fifth Scuffle (at least) and I’ve been to two Midlands. This is definitely the worst collegiate holiday tourney the I’ve attended.

The Scuffle is a shadow of former itself, as compared to its heyday in Greensboro with Cornell, OK State, Mizzou, and Minnesota. I don’t know which was worse... drop off in talent, Lehigh performance, seeds, OK State no-shows (Fix & Smith), having only ONE laptop to cover video reviews for four mats, and the officiating... I truly believe I saw a ref give Verkleeren a reversal AFTER giving him a TD - and the RT clock never started (consy R12). I’ll have to go back and rewatch that bout.

My five-year old will begin wrestling next year. Perhaps we’ll find a nice holiday youth tourney in the Bakersfield area and make a father/son weekend out of it?


Here’s the Verkleeren bout that I referenced... Long summary that I copy-pasted from my post on TheMat:

Total incompetence shown by the the two mat officials, the table crew, and the “back seat driver” referee. You will need FloPRO to watch, but here’s my video breakdown:

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6070 ... zak-drexel

1st Period:
0:55: Verkleeren scores at TD (2:13 to go)
RT does not start. Control scramble ensues.

1:10: Verkleeren comes out on top of his control scramble. (1:56 to go). REF AWARDS A “GREEN REVERSAL” TO BOTTOM GUY. RT still not running.
2-0 V.

1:35: Barczak gets ESC (1:30 to go)
REFs sort out the “reversal call”. CLOCK CONTINUES TO RUN FOR 0:15 more seconds.
2-1 V.

3:30: Restart (1:15 to go, courtesy of the 0:15 run-off) Verkleeren still missing his 0:37 RT on scoreboard ( which shows 0), but Flo’s graphic shows 0:55 RT.
Still 2-1 V.

4:35: Verkleeren TD (0:07 to go). Scoreboard and Flo graphic show 0:07 RT at end of 1st.
4-1 V, w 0:07 RT (should be 0:44)

2nd Period:
5:25: RT is reset to 1:02 (Flo’s erroneous 0:55 + 0:07)
4-1 V, w 1:02 RT (should be 0:44)

5:50: Begin 2nd period. V choose down.

5:55: Verkleeren ESC. (1:52 to go). RT at 0:54 (should be 0:36)
“Back Seat Driver Ref” starts gesturing to table workers.

8:00: End of 2nd w no further scoring.
5-1 V, w 0:54 RT (should be 0:36)

8:00-8:30: BSD Ref gets involved. Barczak awarded a MYSTERY POINT.

3rd Period:
8:30: Barczak choose down.
5-2 V, w 0:54 RT ( should be 5-1, 0:36)

8:45: Barczak ESC (1:52 to go). 8 seconds into period, but V only gets 3 add’l seconds of RT. BALZCAK’s ESC DOES NOT APPEAR on either the scoreboard or the Flo graphic - NOR WILL IT EVER. Maybe BSD Ref is psychic and had a premonition???
5-2 V, w 0:57 RT (should be 5-2, 0:44... 5-3 if you still use the mystery point)

9:00-9:30: Barczak shot and scramble. (1:30-1:09 to go). TD eventually awarded to Barczak at 1:12, when no advantage had been made.
5-4 V. (5-5, if you still use BSD Ref’s mystery point).

9:52: Previously mentioned scramble continued until stalemate at 0:47 to go.
5-4 V w 0:33 RT (should be 5-4, 0:19... 5-5, with mystery point)

9:55-10:15: BSD Ref gets involved AGAIN and adjusts RT to 0:41 for some unknown reason. (0:47 to go)
Restart, 5-4 V w 0:41 RT (should be 5-4, 0:19... 5-5, with mystery point)

10:30: Restart.

10:35: Verkleeren ESC @ 0:44 to go. Riding time continues for 2-3 extra seconds. No further scoring.
FINAL: 6-4 V w 0:39 RT. 6-5, with the mystery point.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby gimp » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:03 am

I'll post the same here as there

I don't know if these were edited by the table crew but check the transcript.

If you don't know how- go to the bracket (149 cons) and click on the bout number- 485.

Note initial td is followed by immediate escape- so no riding time.

I'm not saying there was or wasn't an escape. I'm saying it was recorded that way.

I think the officials/scorers need to be more aware of the look of the screen. At the bottom is a listing of everything that happened. Each move can be edited/deleted.
I used a test event I had and mimiced the bout. I forgot to turn on rt (that wasn't the problem at Scuffle- the main computer guy on setting it up tells the system if it's HS/College/FS/Greco and it takes care of things) so you don't see the clock. I did this to show how it's all laid out visually.

FloArenaTest.jpg
FloArenaTest.jpg (83.45 KiB) Viewed 251 times
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby mr_ftl » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:20 am

It would have worked well if the Flo transcript remotely matched the actual bout (see video). Admittedly, the (assumed) volunteer table crew wasn’t helped by an incompetent primary referee and a back seat driver referee who gave incorrect corrections.

The errors are so egregious that it is almost comical. Fortunately, it did not really map the the outcome of the bout.
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