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Scuffle Day 2

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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby LuLc » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:54 pm

If one is Injured or defaulted out - (Karam, Schuyler, Ammerman, Wood, Parker?, Jakobsen?), can it can really be called "wrestling below his seed"??

Maybe defaulting out below seed?
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby Toast » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:58 pm

LuLc wrote:If one is Injured or defaulted out - (Karam, Schuyler, Ammerman, Wood, Parker?, Jakobsen?), can it can really be called "wrestling below his seed"??

Maybe defaulting out below seed?

However you want to couch it - wrestled below, defaulted below, performed below, etc. - the team standings reflect the same amount of points.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby Spladle88 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:05 pm

Well Karam was seeded 2nd, so since he lost best case finish was third or below seed, Wood lost twice before defaulting out so could not finish 4th or to his seed.....both looked pretty healthy in their final loss before defaulting out....so precautionary I would hope, but still weren't going to wrestle to seed.....

As for Parker, well as soon as someone loses matches like the two he lost everyone on here starts posting he didn't look right, must still be dinged etc......at the same time guys start saying how great the track record the guy he lost to was 2 years ago in high school, or that he was a huge "fill in the weight here".........My guess is he was still dinged but who knows? The downside of being the #2 wrestler in the country at a given weight is there is a lot more room to go down than up..........

Weiler looks game but small at 197, in both his losses he looked like a ragdoll a couple times as the wrestlers blew threw his head and arm defense.....I was surprised initially he couldn't claim the spot over Jakobsen, but the more I watch the two of them the more I can see why he would have problems with Jakobsen.......
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby JDALU75 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:10 pm

klehner wrote:Would it be reasonable that some of the MFFs are out of an abundance of caution? Karam, Schuyler, Ammerman, and Wood: how many were "real" injuries?

I've heard several times that Pat dislikes excessive rematches. Karam already beat Shoop soundly earlier in the season; nothing to be gained by wrestling him again. Schuyler lost to Elfvin in the Drexel dual. Maybe Ammerman looked flat in his first bout and the staff realized they had asked too much. Jakobsen wrestled well throughout and taking on a Duke backup gains nothing. Wood already wrestled Nevills in the dual. It's another matter if the rematch is for the title.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby LUEngineer » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:49 pm

Good thing I didn’t fly to Chatanooga this year as nearly half the team forfeited out of tnmt. I am sure Coaches made decision to pull kids for reasons stated above but I am sure the SS brass aren’t happy about that.

Clearly Pat will not be returning or he would not have done that much forfeiting. Looks like Vegas next year.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby trimanmatfan » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:11 pm

If Karam lost his takedown because the ref made a mistake in not giving the opposing wrestler choice after an injury time out, then Karam got screwed. The opposing coach should be required to challenge, in a timely fashion, the ref's decision to not give choice - just like a coach is required to do in other challenge situations. The coach having failed to do so, the ref should not be able to change his decision on his own initiative to the prejudice of the innocent wrestler, i.e. after he's scored points.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby JDALU75 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:19 pm

Most of those med forfeits happen after the weird call with Karam?
“The immortal gods are wont to allow those persons whom they wish to punish for their guilt sometimes a greater prosperity and longer impunity, in order that they may suffer the more severely from a reverse of circumstances.” - Gaius Julius, aka Caesar
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby gimp » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:22 pm

In no way was Karam screwed here. Assuming such a mistake was made and handled properly the takedown wouldn't have been able to happen as it did anyway so nobody would have been the wiser.
Suppose the other kid had gotten the td and they realized the mistake. Would he be the one screwed and would you have jumped to point that out?
Mistakes happen and they always will. People will get screwed on calls sometimes but this isn't one of those times. The other kid is the one that almost got screwed by not getting choice.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby LU in NJ » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:36 pm

>>>>>>Agreed that Karam got screwed by the refs and the table crew. No excuses for them to collectively miss a basic rule. The Lehigh coaches were obviously focused on Karam's injury so I don't fault them for not focusing on OkieSt's choice after the injury.

The Scuffle brass shouldn't get too upset at Lehigh--------enough teams are opting out of the tourney that they can't afford to hold a grudge.

I don't want to jinx the remaining wrestlers/matches, but it appears we dodged a bullet with both Jake and Karam able to compete after their injuries.

Somehow guys were able to prepare for the EIWAs and NCAAs without entering these mid season meat grinder tourneys in days of old when knights were bold.

I'm not sure the rewards are commensurate with the injury risk and I wouldn't be surprised to see more teams skip them altogether or opt for an event like the Fla duals or another JCC type event in a warm weather location. A three day event with max 3 matches a day would mirror the NCAAs better than the Scuffle with Colucci wrestling 5 matches.

Just one fan's opinion.

It's a great time to be a Lehigh.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby WallyCKP » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:40 pm

>>Ugh....and this tournament as Wally has said is not nearly the meat grinder as in year's past.....

... Well ughh for sure ... but the format is a meat grinder regardless

... And I'm tired of us too often getting outhustled by guys who upset us -- just like we enjoy getting upsets when we're unranked.

... I'll write in LUWN Thurs about how few of these holidays I've ever attended (among 23-24) where I *haven't* been significantly disappointed.

... you think it hurts there, try investing all the travel time & $$ like mr ftl and I just did

... good thing I used FF mi this time ... and thank god for the nice finishes, too, but not enough of them
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby LUchico » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:48 pm

gimp wrote:In no way was Karam screwed here. Assuming such a mistake was made and handled properly the takedown wouldn't have been able to happen as it did anyway so nobody would have been the wiser.
Suppose the other kid had gotten the td and they realized the mistake. Would he be the one screwed and would you have jumped to point that out?
Mistakes happen and they always will. People will get screwed on calls sometimes but this isn't one of those times. The other kid is the one that almost got screwed by not getting choice.


That makes no logical sense whatsoever. Sure mistakes happen but Trimman's logic makes boatloads more sense than what you're saying above.
And why wouldn't the TD have been able to happen, if handled properly?
And if the the other guy got the TD and had it reversed, of course he would have been the one screwed whether or not Lehigh fans jumped to his defense. Either way, it points out the absurdity of the way it was handled.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby gimp » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:01 pm

LUchico wrote:
gimp wrote:In no way was Karam screwed here. Assuming such a mistake was made and handled properly the takedown wouldn't have been able to happen as it did anyway so nobody would have been the wiser.
Suppose the other kid had gotten the td and they realized the mistake. Would he be the one screwed and would you have jumped to point that out?
Mistakes happen and they always will. People will get screwed on calls sometimes but this isn't one of those times. The other kid is the one that almost got screwed by not getting choice.


That makes no logical sense whatsoever. Sure mistakes happen but Trimman's logic makes boatloads more sense than what you're saying above.
And why wouldn't the TD have been able to happen, if handled properly?
And if the the other guy got the TD and had it reversed, of course he would have been the one screwed whether or not Lehigh fans jumped to his defense. Either way, it points out the absurdity of the way it was handled.


Then we have a basic misunderstanding here. If they handled it correctly, the other kid would have gotten choice. It may have still been neutral but it would have been with a different mind set. There's no way to know if the kid was expecting to get choice and that affected his wrestling at that point. This was dead time. Just because somebody scored later doesn't mean he's the one who got screwed. I guess you could say everyone got screwed here but not just the one that happened to score.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby thewhorehouseisbusy » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:21 pm

It’s Fifth Down Gimp so, Let’s Go For It! Certainly, most of us are old enough to remember when the Colorado Buffaloes needed just one more play to take it to rival Missouri in 1990. The refs said, "Why not?" Colorado spiked the ball on fourth down to stop the clock, but someone was not counting correctly, as the Buffs ran for the game-winning touchdown as time expired to beat the Tigers, 33-31, on the next play. It’s worth mentioning that Mizzou didn’t run on the field in a rage as Colorado huddled following its fourth-down spike, but then again, it’s the referees’ job to know what down it is.

The refs in Karam's match chose to do the right thing.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby RichB » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:29 pm

LUchico wrote:
gimp wrote:In no way was Karam screwed here. Assuming such a mistake was made and handled properly the takedown wouldn't have been able to happen as it did anyway so nobody would have been the wiser.
Suppose the other kid had gotten the td and they realized the mistake. Would he be the one screwed and would you have jumped to point that out?
Mistakes happen and they always will. People will get screwed on calls sometimes but this isn't one of those times. The other kid is the one that almost got screwed by not getting choice.


That makes no logical sense whatsoever. Sure mistakes happen but Trimman's logic makes boatloads more sense than what you're saying above.
And why wouldn't the TD have been able to happen, if handled properly?
And if the the other guy got the TD and had it reversed, of course he would have been the one screwed whether or not Lehigh fans jumped to his defense. Either way, it points out the absurdity of the way it was handled.


Agree with Chico. I knew it was OkSU choice after the injury. And I assumed, because this video only shows so much, because he chose neutral which was his only logical choice (with a minute six left in the first period). Yeah, I know bad time rule and all, but like we realized at Bucknell, there are real faults with the rule. The OkSU coach could have tossed the red cube in right away. not 28 secs later.
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Re: Scuffle Day 2

Postby JDALU75 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:55 pm

I smell a rule change coming. Karam earned points and then had them taken away because the opposing coach was holding a do-over card. That's not right any more than it's right that Dillon lost in the NCAA semi-finals because a ref couldn't count to two and a hyperactive table worker ran off with the scoresheet.

I get the part about the ref getting the choice of position wrong and the other guy not getting his choice. The time to correct it was right then and there. The fans in the stands and watching on video knew the rule? Then shame on the coaches for not knowing it and pointing it out right then.
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