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Lehigh Recruiting

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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby JDALU75 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:13 pm

RichB wrote:University of Delaware,Fightin' Blue Hens

Are the women's teams the Lady Hens? Does that make any sense?
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby WallyCKP » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:26 pm

Words out the wazoo, for sure, lots of words. Yet even with MH's broad stroke to the issue, I don't detect one mention of greyshirting.

Cornell's done it for eons; Princeton now does it. Army/Navy don't greyshirt but their prep schools allow them the equivalent - the extra (5th) year w/out added cost to their 4-yr commitment. Even though the NCAA has cracked down on 2-yr greyshirts, Cornell somehow manages to suit some kids up 6 yrs out of HS. Whatever.

The question: why doesn't Lehigh greyshirt, so they can offer 4 yrs not 5 for their talented blue chips; in an emergency (injury) it would be legal to r/s and compete 6 yrs out.

Sometime around 2006 or '07 I asked Coach: "why don't we greyshirt?" The answer: "We don't like to lose control" .... interesting that CU and Princeton don't mind it but Lehigh does. My guess is that it's University policy, out of the coaches' hands, completely consistently with other athletic policies. We've got ncaa grants, we've redshirted true freshmen only since 1996 (fact - they had to wait a year from '72-95); when new frosh show up to work out on a regular basis in June or July, they have to take LU course load and find a way to pay for it, since their scholarship doesn't kick in until registration (alumni pick up the cost). The Power 5 move to pay cash above full rides? I never thought Lehigh would touch that with a 10' pole, but now we do, if understandably not the limit.

A Lehigh administrator has a right to ask: "does the kid really want Lehigh academics and pay something for its worth, or just wrestle?" Our kids want both though fans would be surprised to learn how few since '94 have received a 100% full ride, even if the difference meant just paying for books, upwards of $700-800/yr. Yes, some parents have balked at paying for books; I as a fan don't get to decide whose ethics are higher (it's been resolved).

Sooner or later, I tend to accept policy. This is Lehigh University, not pure state Penn State or hybrid Cornell. Fans might not like something, but the University -- incl our top "wrestling" trustees -- do things for very good reasons. They support the sport like very few other programs do. The overall $25mil+ raised since the grants were funded in '94 is almost certainly unmatched by any other school. Slight problem: state schools don't have to endow scholarships already budgeted to the tax payer. CU doesn't have to raise a dollar for scholarships (they might, but they don't have to).

We've had to raise other major funds to make up for this similar hurdle. The administration and alumni have consistently risen to the challenge; the result is that all league rivals but Cornell are envious of what we have. That envy exists, before LU fans ask for even more. Winning matters a s____d but it's not everything. No, we don't match current annual budgets of The NCAA Top 5 - but we compete very well with all the rest. And give me a break showing short term envy for things Virginia or Harvard has done in wrestling. Just samples, not poking at them -- but c'mon man; if you can't man up vs. them. then you're not keeping it real.

It's very easy to ask for more. Just type words. Done ! But it's harder to accept an explanation. Bottom line: our wrestling program is being run better than a helluva lot of other organizations, currently top 8%; overall top 15. The rest of our non-hybrid league would kill to be us; and right now we're ahead of three mega-rivals: Iowa, MN and Cornell.

Try naming the last year that's been true. Once since 1971 -- in 2003. One final comment on recruiting: if this were a 7-sr line-up like 1995, or a 4-sr 2006 when all four were our sole Top 10's, then you might be justified micro-managing the two 'new' classes. One isn't even done yet -- and the other is a helluva lot better than some might think.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby RichB » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:52 pm

The below 10 schools all have an unique official "type" (state related etc) the other 341 NCAA D1 schools are of 3 types. State, Private non sectarian, private (of some type)

Pennsylvania State University, Nittany Lions, State College,Pennsylvania,State-related, Big Ten Conference
University of Pittsburgh,Panthers,Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania,State-related,Atlantic Coast Conference
Temple University,Owls,Philadelphia,Pennsylvania,State-related American, Athletic Conference
Rutgers University,Scarlet Knights,New Brunswick,New Jersey,State-private hybrid,Big Ten Conference
United States Air Force Academy (Air Force) Falcons,Colorado Springs,Colorado,Federal academy,Mountain West Conference
United States Military Academy (Army)Black Knights,West Point,New York,Federal academy,Patriot League
United States Naval Academy (Navy),Midshipmen,Annapolis,Maryland,Federal academy,Patriot League
Grand Canyon University,Antelopes,Phoenix,Arizona,For Profit/Christian, Western Athletic Conference
University of Delaware,Fightin' Blue Hens,Newark,Delaware,Private-state hybrid, Colonial Athletic Association
Cornell University,Big Red,Ithaca,New York,Private/Statutory state, Ivy League

There are 227 institutions simply listed as State. That includes VMI, Citadel, Ga Tech, Va Tech, and some lesser Techs, William and Mary (which I had assumed was more like Cornell or Rutgers) and "Private Ivies, Va, Mi, Ill, (maybe Minn and Wisc), and several University of Calif scores.

44 Private non sectarian

70 Private religious
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby WallyCKP » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:30 pm

by trimanmatfan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:43 pm >>All good, but last year's and this year's recruiting classes was/is weak and it will be felt a few years down the road.
by trimanmatfan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:42 pm >> What "evidence" are you referring to? Wally's opinion that the class was ranked much lower than it should have been and that Scott Parker agreed with him? I suggest it would be more illuminating to check rankings and also, as to the incoming class, numbers.
So I busted my ass and actually DID exactly what triman requested – but only luchico was kind enough to respond (spladle teased him about being ‘too reasonable and thought out’ which may or may not be supportive of the research)

..... #14 Princeton - '17-18 --- bios
21-Travis Stefanik,PA-- n/a---grey-shirt; lost to Andrew Price in Nov
28-Patrick Brucki,IL---- 9-1---truly excellent kid

.....#15 Wisconsin
17-Trent Hillger,MI---- 6-3--- MI 4,1,1(182-8)
69-Devin Bahr,WI------ 4-0--- 3x WI 1 (161-1),Jr Nat 2
86-Paul Konrath,IN---- 4-0--- IN 3,2; Jr Nat 2

....#16 Purdue
51-Anthony Falbo,CT--n/a--- CT 1,1,1; N.Eng 3,2,1
54-Max Lyon,IA---------8-4--- IA 4,2,1,1
57-Parker Filius,MT---- n/a--4x MT 1; Jr Nat 3,6,8

....#17 Brown
42-Bryce Rogers,FL---- 5-6--- FL 1,1,1(236-22); Super 32 1st; NHSCA 1,1
55-A.J. Pedro,NH------ 6-4--- N.Prep 3,3,2; N.Engl 1; Beast 3 (80-8)
98-Hunter Kosco,OH-- 4-4--- OH x,x,x,2(hi); Ironman 8, Cadet 8

Our top (frosh) trio begam 20-1; there's no reason they're not as good on paper right now as recruits like the 3 from Purdue & Brown – probably equal to any team ranked 15-17 (maybe Princeton); no idea how UW's Konrath got ranked higher than ANY of our 3

A HUGE PROBLEM with HS polls is their simplistic obsession with state titles (and top 3 Jr Nat finishes) -- as if a PA 2nd isn't as good or better than many other 1sts. That's why Preisch wasn't ranked; Hamlin got screwed coming from VT (not for long - hough it took him 3 semesters); hell, Hatchett was 3x FL 1 but only 4x seems to get Top 100; go figure.

Scott Parker was in hindsight a Top 25 but he, too, got lowered by "only" placing 4,3,2 in the nation's toughest wt class back then; Lisak, Pletcher, etc

125- Matt Parker-PA 5,2,3 (142-17), Cadet Nat 2,3; Beast 2,3,3
133/141-Danny Moran-PA 2,4,5,2 (146-29) Beast 3, N/E Reg 1 (free)
133/141-Jimmy Hoffman-PA 2,2 (162-26)

The only probable bottom lines: the Top 8, 10, 12 are usually fairly easy to justify on paper but the ink gets smudged a lot after that; I've voted on the last 5-6 AWN recruiting polls and it's possible to endlessly juggle lower classes right up to publishing time. Often a mess. Then all that matters is the future.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby trimanmatfan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:51 am

Wally, since it’s the holiday season I don’t want to be “unkind” and ignore your hard work but I’m afraid your “ass busting” leaves me unconvinced. First, isn’t it rather early in the game to assess the career success of members of the Class of ’17? More importantly, you apparently went to a lot of trouble to attempt to prove the obvious, to wit: rankings and high school results are imperfect predictors of D1 success.

I’m sure you’ll correct me, but I believe that in the LU classes of ’17 and ’18 there’s not a single Top 100 recruit or one with a championship from a highly competitive wrestling state. For LU, I believe this is subpar - which in retrospect may be a better word choice than “weak”. Let’s look at the class of ’16, for example. There are two starters and two co-starters in the current lineup, all of whom were Top 100 recruits and state champions or the equivalent. No other member of that class was in that category and, coincidentally, none is a starter.

Of course there are highly credentialed recruits who don’t pan out and vice-versa. But, in general, I would think that your odds are better with the so-called “blue chips”. Take a look at this year’s Top 100, especially near the top, and what do you see in the main? Penn State and the other contemporary powers. Take a look at the resumes of the wrestlers on their rosters and what do you see? Championships and often multiple championships from the top wrestling states. Obviously THEY think rankings and championships are of value in predicting future success and they’re doing pretty well following that strategy.

Enjoy your holidays, Wally. And try to relax.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby LUEngineer » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:22 am

I have been off this page for a while and just catching up. Great to get the junior commit who could emerge as blue chip for us. I think what most of us are saying is that Lehigh has to secure at least one blue chip stud per year combined with the second tier kids we are currently getting such as the current freshman and next year freshman class. Darian Cruz was that one blue chip recruit from his class and he was a freshman AA and brought home the gold in his junior year rather than waiting til senior year for many second tier recruits. Darian was targeted from his sophomore year by the coaches and getting his brother to come to Lehigh was key to getting Darian. Who knows whether admission latitude was required but the coaches made it happen either way.

Scott Parker is one of those second tier guys that our coaches do a great job with and emerged as the blue chip they saw in him from that class.

Jordan Kutler was the blue chip from his class and was destined for great things his freshman year and is all everyone hoped he would be.

The next class was the banner year with Wood and Karem to gems followed closely by Weiler and Jakobsen.

Hopefully Matt Parker emerges like his brother from second tier status and certainly the coaches saw blue chip in him.

No clear blue chip in the current incoming class but hopefully the coaches see a Parker type in that class as well.

The current freshman eligibility class of the 4 studs combined with Kutler and Parkers can carry the day for a number of years as a Top 10 but we have to keep reloading at least one blue chip to assure continuity and Final 4 type performance we would like to think we can achieve. Bending admissions such that the one or 2 of the 36 Lehigh admits with under 1200 SAT's hopefully are represented by those Top 20 ranked high school recruits. I think that is the story that MH and others are asking to make happen thru the admission process.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby thewhorehouseisbusy » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:27 am

Just keep recruiting Parkers.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby JDALU75 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:54 am

Coupla points. Darian was ranked #52 by Intermat and #46 by D1CW; Scott Parker was ranked IM #66 and D1CW #54; Darian wrestled in PA AA and Parker in AAA. Scotty wasn't all that different a shade of blue while he was being recruited, and we saw them both as bluer chips retroactively (once they had A/A'd). The cobalt-blue chip Parker's year was Dylan Milonas, IM #18, who went 3-0 before his career-ending concussion. Reportedly it was the last in a string of wrestling-related concussions, and I suspect the staff knew that he couldn't take many more shots without being retired medically. So recruiting Milonas could be seen as taking a risk, but with a kid who was medically and not academically at risk -- the type of thing you do for a special talent.

Regarding dropping below "1200" once a year for a blue chipper -- how do you know that isn't exactly what we already do? And how far below 1200 should we be willing to go? Every year we know offers are made to wrestlers who choose to go elsewhere, probably in part because other schools are dropping below 1200 as well. Should we join some of them and drop below 950?

I once heard the father of one of my son's high school golf opponents insist to his own son that he could improve his game if he would just cut down on his three-putts. End of advice. I feel like we're offering advice on that level to the pros who already know what they're doing.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby scribe » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 am

I know Koll follows my advice very carefully. But do you guys really believe you’re making some kind of difference in this forum?
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby mr_ftl » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:53 am

thewhorehouseisbusy wrote:Just keep recruiting Parkers.

I thought Parkers recruited us... at least Matty, that is.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby RichB » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:46 am

thewhorehouseisbusy wrote:Just keep recruiting Parkers.

I count 9 Parkers in Pennsylvania with HS eligibility remaining.

http://www.pa-wrestling.com/wrestler_se ... &ln=parker
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby JDALU75 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:57 am

scribe wrote:Koll follows my advice very carefully.

Big whup. He listens to me too. I told him not to take the Penn State job and stay at Cornell some years back, and he did exactly that.

You can look it up.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby John Henning » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:21 pm

The current true frosh are really good recruits and plenty tough so I disagree with the characterization of "weak.'
MParker, Moran and Hoffman have the PA hardware to prove it. Parker may be the starter next year at 125. If you recruit 2 eventual starters per year that are legit (like MParker) then that's all you need when you add in the redshirt year. A small number of guys will quit and the remainder will provide a high quality room to work out in. Here's a question: would you have referred to RPomrinca as "weak?" He's the exact kind of guy some of you guys are referring to. How about "only" PA 3rd Ryan Presisch?

The proof is always in results and Pat Santoro has given us results. It is absurd to label young guys on this or any forum in a less than positive way. What in the blue hell are some of you guys thinking? You think we give a crap what you think of Lehigh recruiting? Especially when you have zero -- *zero* -- proof to back up your claims.

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby LU in NJ » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:26 pm

>>>>>>>>Good luck finding a recruiting year where Santoro and staff didn't land at least one projected AA.

Some had injuries that truncated and/or negatively impacted the results ( Milonas, Hess, Meys, Napoli, etc), but the consistent stream of AAs proves the point.

It doesn't matter that a guy isn't a PA state champ or top 100 ranked if the coaches believe he projects to AA status.

I recall two conversations with different Lehigh coaches:

One said: don't get too wrapped up in the ranking, you are really going to like Scotty Parker

The other said: Hamlin's going to be really good, he reminds me (the coach) of Travis Frick.

Hamlin wasn't top 100 and Scotty wasn't a PA champ. Put your faith in the coaches, not somebody's rankings.

Some recruiting classes may be better than others, but imo,Santoro and staff have never had a 'weak' or 'subpar' class.

It's a great time to be a Lehigh wrestling fan.
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Re: Lehigh Recruiting

Postby RichB » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:30 pm

12% of students taking SAT get over 1300.
12% 1200-1300
17% 1100-1200
10% 1050-1100
9% 1000-1050
median seems to be about 1055
87.4% of LU students get SAT >1300
08.7% 1200-1300t
03.0% 1100-1200
00.9% under 1100
based on the current freshmen I believe.

Assuming everyone Pat recruits has never been in "legal trouble", and everyone has at least a 3.4 HS GPA, a couple of non-wrestling activities,then, a top 100 wrestling ranking, probably a top 300 ranking, maybe a top 1000 ranking, and a Pat recommendation very, very likely gets you in to LU. --- I suspect 1200-1300 people would not be considered a sub-par admission as their GPAs increase, i.e. a 1200 SAT a 3.95 and a top 2% class rank should usually do the job.

I am guessing a guy 1300 SAT but GPA under say 3.2, or 1200-1300 SAT and less than super GPA is something Pat might get once a year. Under 1100-1200 maybe once every 2 years. Under 1100, maybe 1-2 a decade.
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